Ken Griffin on China, Trump and Why He Bought a Dinosaur - Bonus Content from Bullish

Do you notice it cleared up for us?

You know, I had to call somebody to make that happen.

He's like, you know, "I'll do this for you this one day this year, but that's it."

But that's it.

So I said, "You know, for you, I'll do it."

Well, for me, it's like the way to get out later.

No, I was only promised two and a half hours, so.

Okay, so we have to get this done properly within the right time.

Yes, because otherwise the clouds shall return.

Okay, Ken, so take me back to COVID, right?

That's when—can we start anywhere else?

We should start at COVID because that was when you changed everything. You brought so many people down here so quickly. How did that work?

So let's go back to the pandemic. So if you research respiratory viruses in general, they spread less in high humidity, high UV radiation environments. Take out a map of the United States, you're coming to Florida. And we rented the Four Seasons in Palm Beach to bring as many people as we could here for an unknown duration and created perhaps the first bubble in America. So the people that came to the Four Seasons in Palm Beach, they checked in and they literally could not leave the property for months. But it allowed us to run our business at a period in time where our ability to provide our clients, our customers with liquidity was extraordinarily valued and appreciated. And I'm forever grateful to my team members who did come here to partake in this journey together to help to meet the needs of our clients.

Now of note, I think most people that were in that experience loved it because it was a chance to be social, to be engaged, for families to be together and to interact with other families. So it was a very unusual moment in history, but I think it worked out well for everybody involved.

I feel like if you're the Four Seasons at that time, too, you're probably glad to get the call. I mean, it's not like they were getting a lot of other people calling to stay there.

Well, the Four Seasons was thrilled, and their staff, I give them huge credit. You know, the chefs, housekeeping, everybody, same protocol. Nobody left the property. And they really, really made it an extraordinary stay for all of my colleagues and their families.

I heard you even called it the bubble.

I don't remember what we referred to it as, but yes, it was the bubble.

Whose idea was it, and how did it kind of change the way you viewed this place as your next place of employment?

So, I don't know how the Four Seasons came to pass. It was such a chaotic moment in history. You know, the map of the United States, that was my idea, but whose idea it was to rent the Four Seasons, I don't know. I have a great team, and part of what makes Citadel special is just the predisposition towards taking action. And when I was down here as they were building out the trading floor, and remember, we built out a trading floor in five days that, if need be, could have handled the entire volume footprint of the New York Stock Exchange. I mean, it was a technological feat to make that happen in five days. And I'm grateful to the city officials, the county officials, the state officials for helping to accommodate us to do such an incredible undertaking in such a limited period of time.

And when we look back on that moment, I must say all of us are grateful to the leadership in this state for their get-it-done, pro-business attitude, particularly in this moment of national crisis.

Right. I mean, the hotel is probably not made to be a trading floor, right? So what happened? I mean, how did you change it to serve that function?

So the area we used was pretty much made to host weddings. And it was an interesting moment because we had a technological footprint with the ballroom space. And that involved, for example, deploying thousands of servers. And you can imagine the power demand that went with thousands of servers, and how do you solve that problem? What's interesting is the state of Florida, because it has hurricanes, has portable generation, and we were able to bring in a portable generator to solve our power needs, for example. But that can-do attitude of helping to make things happen, that was something special that I think all of us underestimated when we came here to embark on this project. I mean, we worked literally 24 hours a day, several hundred people for five days in a row, and built what would usually have taken one or two years to accomplish.

It was really quite a feat.

Does it tell you something about how finance is done today? Does it mean it could be done differently? Frankly, if you could be that nimble over the course of days, then do you think that the way that finance works today is just a little too clunky?

I think that's a bit of an overstatement. Remember, we were building a trading floor that would be able to be up and running. But if you were to build a modern trading floor like we are in our new office building in New York, the resiliency and redundancy that goes with that is a different set of demands than you would architect for under the circumstances that we had faced.

So let's talk more about Florida because you fast forward now, we're years later, and this is supposed to be one of the next great hubs for Citadel and Citadel Securities. Why?

Tense is wrong. This is one of the great hubs for Citadel and Citadel Securities. We have several hundred people here in Miami. The leadership of Citadel Securities is between Miami, New York, and London principally. This is a really important part of their business. And then for the hedge fund, a number of my most senior professionals are here in Miami with me. This is a very important part of our global footprint.

Why, though? I mean, where does this fall into the span of all the great cities in the world? New York, London, Miami?

So, I mean, clearly you enumerate some of the great cities in the world, New York, London. Miami is unequivocally one of the great up-and-coming cities, not just in Florida, not just in America, but in the world.

It doesn't come without its challenges, right? I mean, when we talk to a lot of people who are considering moving to Miami, they do talk a lot about the cost of living, the skyrocketing rent, the lack of access to schools, or the fact that there may not be enough of them for how many people are moving down here.

Ah, I just want to make sure, because it's the same list of problems, isn't it? And these are the problems of prosperity. These are the problems that you have in cities that are growing, that are booming. These are problems that, frankly, you'd much prefer over the alternative, right? The counterfactual: you're shrinking, you're dying cities. Housing's cheap. Schools have empty seats. You and I and the people that we want to work with want to be in vibrant, growing cities like Miami. Now, the positive about Miami is whether it's the county mayor, the mayor of the city, or the governor of the state, there's a very strong appreciation of the necessity of managing growth. And Florida, of course, has been on a tremendous growth trajectory for decades.

They are putting in place the infrastructure to deal with housing, schooling, transportation. We all know it's an area that we need to do better on, but the ethos in the state has been for decades: how do you solve these problems? How do you facilitate the ever-growing population in this state?

Now, you yourself have been doing a lot to improve some of these situations. You've been investing in the infrastructure. You've been investing in the schools. How long do you think it would take to bridge some of these challenges?

Again, it's a matter of degrees. There are great schools here in Miami, for example. There is great housing here in Miami. There's really wonderful cultural institutions and fantastic hospitals. But we want to enrich the base of resources, and we want to make sure that the city has the ability to maintain a high quality of life for people of all demographics. So there's a big push here, for example, for affordable housing. How do we bring down the cost of housing to keep Miami a place where people can have families and have a rich quality of life?

You grew up in Florida. Is there an aspect of this that's a homecoming for you? How much has this state changed since when you grew up here?

Well, you know, if you look at the 50-some years I've been alive, I was in Florida for roughly 10 years of that 55 years before coming here. So I was born in Daytona Beach. My father worked on the Apollo program. But as the space program went down, we moved to Wisconsin. And then from Wisconsin, we moved to the panhandle of Texas, the Permian Basin, which is experiencing the oil boom that we know today. Did come back to Florida for my high school years and then left for college in Cambridge, Massachusetts, went to Harvard. So I've lived here before, but I would say that given all the places I lived growing up, I would say that I lived in America. And coming back to Miami is actually not something that I had anticipated at this point in my life, but I must tell you, I am really thrilled to be here.

Are you happiest here?

This has been a tremendous place to live. You know, as a parent of three children, it's pretty simple. Happy children, happy parent. And I will tell you that Anne and I are so thrilled with how happy our children are here in Miami. The greatest gift I perhaps have given my children is to have them have a chance to grow up here in South Florida.

You joked around with me a couple of years ago.

Just a couple years ago.

Just a couple years ago. You joked around with me and you were saying that one day New York is going to be Brickell North, or I think you were referring to it as Brickell North at that time. Do you think that there's a time where your presence in Miami for Citadel and even Citadel Securities is going to be bigger than in New York?

I mean, over the next few years, no. Over 20 or 30 years, we'll see what unfolds. I mean, it's very hard to make long-term planning vis-a-vis American cities today. You know, if you look at the rate of change across the United States in our cities, it's been tremendous over the last 15 years, some for the better, some for the worse. And so what I'd like to say is I'd like to see New York experience great leadership and continue to prosper. I mean, it's a city that we have a huge, 179 investment in. I don't view this as a competition between Miami and New York. I view this as, as an American, I want to see both of these cities really be great places and financial centers for the United States, for North America, and for the world.

Now, we were talking a little about your investment in the city and the institutions that are what is going to be ultimately what makes sure the city continues to succeed. Schools are a big part of that. It's interesting. You've donated substantial sums not only to universities but to middle schools as well. I'm wondering what this says about how you plan to shape the educational system moving forward. What is your goal in your giving to these universities and schools?

Well, those are sort of two completely different realms, right? In higher education, the United States has historically led the world. And I really do believe that American higher education is a national resource that we need to protect, cherish, and develop. Now, of course, at this moment in time, there's quite a bit of controversy around the role of America's higher education. But let's be clear, no ifs, no ands, no buts. America's universities provide the intellectual capital that powers the American success story. K-through-12 education, very local, local in reach, local in touch. I want to make sure that my colleagues here, that their children and the children from families across Miami have access to great schools.

And we have given considerable sums of money to schools across Miami to help increase capacity. This goes back to the very first statement, growing city, growing population of children. And it's great to see that demand in schools. You know, I lived in Chicago for almost, for about 30 years. What happened over 30 years? The schools emptied. The population of children plummeted by about 30%. I so prefer having to support increasing capacity than having to debate with the mayor how to reduce the cost of Chicago's K-12 schools because of all the empty seats.

You went to Harvard, right? You have long been considered one of the largest donors, the largest donor to have given money that's been committed, correct?

That's what I've heard.

That's what we've heard. So what's the value of a Harvard education in 30 years? If you look down the road, do you think that the Harvard brand will be the same in 30 years?

Look, I think this comes down to what does the Harvard corporate board choose to do over the next decade. I think there's no doubt that Harvard lost its way a bit over the last few years. The scandal that they went through was really quite devastating to the university. But under the leadership of the new president, the focus on encouraging a more open discourse, a more transparent discourse in the classroom, a focus on returning to the fundamentals of Western education, I think positions Harvard well to pivot back towards its long-established position of leadership in American higher education.

Do you think what's happening there, though, says something much bigger about the role of elite colleges, elite universities in America?

Look, I think what had happened at Harvard, which was the rise of wokeism, a focus away from traditional values and education, the emergence of a cancel culture, the anti-Semitism that we witnessed on campus, was part of a larger dynamic that was gripping American culture. And I think one of the great parts of the Trump administration has been the pushback on wokeism and on some of the cultural dynamics that I think really polarize us as a nation. I really do hope that higher education, and we're seeing this across the country, focuses once again, first and foremost, how do we create the next generation of people who are great contributors to society in leadership and other roles across our country.

But since you stopped giving to Harvard—and maybe it's not a direct, you know, money went there to, money went to different universities—you have broadened your giving. "I have." And so do you see your dollars going elsewhere into different types of universities moving forward?

I mean, clearly I've diversified by giving to higher education. My belief in the importance of higher education stands firm, but I do believe that by contributing to other universities who have very strong academic programs, I am managing the risk of my charitable giving portfolio.

It's interesting also because over at Harvard you have a School of Arts and Sciences with your name on it. And I'm wondering what you think about the skills of the future that people need to thrive in this country.

At our core, there is a debate between the value of a liberal arts education and a STEM degree. There's no doubt, there's no doubt, America needs more graduates with a STEM degree. But I cannot emphasize enough the importance of a liberal arts education. And in particular, when you think about public service, or the skills of how to run a large company, having an appreciation of economic, political, and philosophical considerations, I think, is very important in the performance of one's duties.

So if you're thinking about the future of America, really, very recently, I've heard you say that if you're coming to America for college or to go to one of these universities, that you should have a visa stamped on your diploma on the way out.

Wait, we don't want you to leave, right? So that visa's stamped on your diploma because we want you to stay in America. If you're going to come to our country and have access to one of the greatest educations in the world, I want you to contribute back to the United States of America. I don't want you to go back to the country you came from. I want you to grow roots here and to make a difference in our country, to help build businesses, support our communities, participate in our country as immigrants have for now almost two-and-a-half centuries.

You know, I think the reason I'm asking so much about higher education is it's because one of the ways, it's one of the ways that people have found mobility in this country. It's been part of the American dream. Is that still alive and well? Or do you see more risks to it today than you might have even five, ten years ago?

Look, I think we always need to protect the on-ramps of the American Dream. If you ask me, the greatest challenge to the American Dream today has been our failure as a country in K-12 education, or for that matter, preschool through 12th-grade education. We really need to push each and every state to take its game up in educating children in K-12. You know, in Illinois, there's roughly 80 schools where not a single child can perform math at grade level. Now think about that. 80 schools, not one child is at grade level in mathematics. How are you going to compete in this moment in history if you don't have a command of mathematics? How are you going to do that? So we need to first and foremost focus on K-12.

I'm actually not as worried about American universities. Like when it's all said and done, we will get that right. But K-12 is the principal on-ramp to the American Dream, and that's where we need to focus as a country.

There's a clear frustration across America on how these opportunities have been distributed. And one way that seems to play out is a distaste for immigration, that we should take care of the people that are already here before we try to take care of others. Would you agree with that?

17. Let's look at the K-12 education point for a moment. One of the real challenges that we have across the country is that the opportunities in K-12 are not equally allocated with respect to socio-demographic factors. In simple English, children in wealthier communities tend to have a better experience in K-12 education than children, for example, who live in the inner city. I was part of a group in California that litigated over the rights of a child to a solid education. California provides that by a constitutional provision. And what you see in the state of California is that poor performing teachers from affluent communities are pushed out of those schools into less affluent communities.

And the worst of the teachers are pushed into the least affluent communities. So the children who really do need great teachers are often surrounded by the weakest teachers. And what was really frustrating was to lose that case in front of the Supreme Court of the state of California. So we first and foremost have to address our problems that we have created for ourselves first and foremost. With respect to immigration, we don't know if people came across the borders looking to live the American dream or not. But you cannot say that millions of people rushing across that border gave you confidence about America's immigration policies. Now, having said that, everyone knows this is a country of immigrants.

This country has a long-standing tradition of wanting people to be here who do come here to live the American dream, who come here to contribute to our society and to help to grow our economy and to help to make this a more prosperous country. We do want a level of immigration to our country.

One major question I have—of course I'm gonna want to talk about Citadel and Citadel Securities, but as I've covered you over the years, I've seen your interest develop more and more, the dollars you've put toward those interests and the effort you've put in: education, immigration. When you think about your political giving, when you think about the influence that you want to have and the mark you want to make, what's most important to you?

Well, I think you need to think about the arc of one's life. In my 20s, I gave my time. I didn't have money to give in my 20s. I gave my time. I actually tutored in the inner city of Chicago and saw firsthand the challenges that these young, in this case, boys and girls face in trying to break the cycle of poverty. Like, it's really, really tough work to tutor these kids who are so far behind. And at Citadel, one of the things that we support is we support our colleagues being involved in nonprofit organizations. We have almost—we have several hundred colleagues who are on the boards of nonprofit institutions across the country, giving of their time to improve other people's lives. I'm really proud of that, that that's such a part of the ethos and culture of the firm.

Now, over the years, time became scarcer, money became more plentiful, started to give money to support public education reform. How do we help young men and women? In Chicago, one of the things I love doing is I would help to underwrite the cost of giving books to every newborn child in the city of Chicago. It's a well-established fact that the number of books a child's exposed to early in life actually has a disproportionate impact on their entire educational journey. If I looked at all the work that I did, though, in public education in particular, I would often see that work undermined by very poor political policies. In some sense, we often put the interest of the teachers' union in front of the interest of the students.

And if I wanted to see kids have a chance to get ahead in the United States, I decided it was important to support politicians, both Republicans and Democrats, who put education as a very important part of their platform. And over the years, I've continued to support candidates on both sides of the aisle who really do lead with an education-first policy.

It's interesting to hear you say that because coming into this interview, I was going to ask about what mark you wanted to make on the Republican Party. But it sounds like you're not limited to that.

I'm not limited to that. I find, in general, I tend to agree with more of the policies from the Republican Party. But it's important to recognize people in both parties that really do lead the charge fighting for the interests of children.

So education is a big place that you are putting your energy and dollars towards. What else? What else is important to you when it comes to the future of the country?

Look, education, hands down, number one. Number two is healthcare. We all want to live healthier, richer lives, and supporting research in healthcare, supporting healthcare treatment. And one of the gifts I'm most proud of is my support of MSK in New York City. They do such an incredible job treating both the affliction that the patient has, but more importantly, or of equal importance, giving the patient dignity when fighting the battle against cancer. They have such a great culture of caring for the patient, the gestures towards the families, and then the focus on the basic research that will give people, hopefully, an end to this awful disease.

So in the near term, I am curious as somebody who is looking at, as you said, both parties change, what is the way that President Trump is changing the Republican Party? And where do you fit into the spectrum of ideas?

Well, let me answer a different question. Let me tell you how I'm focused on helping to change the Republican Party. One of the big pushes that we made over recent years was to substantially increase the number of people who ran for office in the Republican Party who were women, who were veterans, and who were people of color, because I believe the Republican Party needs to do a better job of representing all of America. So that's been a big push for us over the recent years—has been bringing people with those backgrounds into public service. You know, I was an adamant supporter, for example, of David McCormick—really strong businessman, really great experience in serving our country. That's the kind of person that I want to see in Washington representing the interests of all of us who live in our great country.

Do you worry that in the push-pull of these tariff negotiations that some of that trust has been lost?

We have lost some of that trust, and that's why, whether it's with respect to the United Kingdom, whether it's with respect to the de-escalation with China, that's why these are such important moments in American history, because we're starting to reestablish trust, and that's very important.

We are almost four months into the new Trump administration. What grade would you give the administration on their policymaking so far, specifically with economic policy? Would it be a pass or a fail?

Look, the Trump administration is trying to cover a tremendous amount of ground very quickly. The president's very focused: how do I deliver on as many of my promises as I possibly can in a very limited period of time? And on many fronts, he's done a spectacular job. For example, the border between the United States and Mexico is now secure for the first time in years. That's a real accomplishment. On economic policy, it's way too early to grade the president. We don't know where we're going to settle vis-a-vis the world on trade. We don't know where the president's spending bill is going to land, the tax bill and spending bill is going to land. It's just too early to know. We will know a lot in just a few months as to how this administration has done in growing and accelerating the growth of the American economy.

Now when you look at the tax bill, it looks like the direction of travel is such that you have $4 trillion in tax reductions, but $1.5 trillion in spending required. How is that going to close the U.S. deficit?

Well, I mean, what's clear is that the numbers that we talk about in America are almost incomprehensible. Billions and trillions. I mean, it's just unbelievable how big government in Washington has become. And I think one of the areas that the Trump administration is focused on is how to reduce the scale and scope of spending here in the United States, whether it's the efforts at DOGE or the debates that are happening right here, right now as we speak about, for example, Medicaid and the cost of Medicaid to the states. The Trump administration is really thinking about how do we help to solve our nation's spending problem? And then, at the same time, they're grappling with what is the right tax policy

that helps us to pay for the promises that we've made to the American people and yet ignite the maximum amount of growth that we can achieve in our economy, because when it's all said and done, the only way the United States will solve for the promise it's made to its people is for us to far more rapidly grow our economy.

What role is deregulation going to play in that?

Well, I mean, deregulation is clearly already one of the huge accomplishments of the Trump administration. And why do I say that? Because the onslaught of new regulation has stopped. That, in and of itself, has been incredibly powerful for corporate America, the ability to focus on growing your business again without worrying about what new rules will be imposed upon you from Washington. Now, having said that, the efforts to deregulate are going to be more slow because it takes time to re-underwrite: Why was the regulation put in place to start with? How does this regulation serve the interests of the American people? It takes time to thoughtfully deregulate our economy.

Your companies have a footprint all over the world. Are you seeing investors hedging against U.S. instability, diversifying away from U.S. stocks or even U.S. Treasuries, given the changes and the uncertainties that still exist around them with the administration?

I think there's been two very strong realizations by investors around the world. First, there was a bit of a knee-jerk reaction to pull back from the United States, to be anxious about investing in America given the stance and changing stance we took in areas like trade. But then there's also just a realization that no country in the world enjoys the rate of innovation and commercial development that we enjoy here in America. And so you have these two competing arguments that investors around the world are grappling with. Is the United States going to be a reliable ally and economic player in the world markets? And compare and contrast that with the reality that, if you take a step back, no country in the world, other than perhaps China, comes anywhere close to America in terms of the rate of innovation and creative energy that goes into growing our economy.

Do you think investors underestimate China's strength in artificial intelligence?

I think that the DeepSeek moment was a real wake-up call for investors. There's no doubt about that. I think one of the challenges that America has consistently underestimated over the last decade is the rate of change in China's ability to innovate. If you think about it today, China leads the world in a broad array of the emerging technologies that matter to the next 100 years. And I think the United States needs to be pretty open-minded about the reality that we need to improve our education system. We need to further strengthen our universities because we do need, as a competitive matter, to be able to out-innovate the Chinese.

Now, back to tariffs for a moment here. It's the word that has really taken over most of the year. Fed Governor Adriana Kugler said that she expects tariffs, even with the most recent de-escalation, to still boost inflation. Do you still see that as a big concern?

So there's no doubt that tariffs will create a one-time rise in inflation. The question is, does the one-time rise become structural due to the challenges and issues that go with onshoring? You know, with unemployment in the United States at roughly 4.2%, it's very difficult to create a substantial increase in the number of manufacturing jobs because, thankfully, most Americans today are employed, and they're employed in good jobs today. So the biggest challenge we're going to have with the president's agenda of reshoring is just the shortage of skilled labor to work in manufacturing here in the United States.

You have said that tariffs are painfully regressive taxes. Do you think that a widening of wealth inequality is going to play into the midterm elections in a big way?

to deal with issues of how do we ensure American firms have the ability to compete abroad, and frankly, to deal with our spending problems in Washington. I think tariffs were a difficult choice to make to solve those problems. It was not my first choice by any stretch of the imagination. And I think that any tax policy that makes it harder for working-class families to pay their bills and to live their dreams could come with a real price in the midterm elections.

At the same time, with the deficit being front and center, the GOP, various senators, have pushed back against the idea of a millionaire's tax. What are your thoughts on the ultra-rich paying more of a share?

Well, the ultra-rich in the United States already pay almost the majority of taxes paid in this country. So there's clearly the ability to revert back to the tax regime that we, for example, saw in the Obama administration. The question is, does that start to discourage growth? What is the optimal tax rate that both solves for the needs for revenues, but of greater importance, ensures that we have individuals who are willing to step out of their comfort zones and to take the risks that we need to meaningfully grow our economy? If we can't get growth back up to a much higher level, we do have a really difficult financial future ahead of us.

I want to go back to something you said a little bit earlier, this notion that it's hard to see whether this is a one-time hit to inflation or whether it's more persistent. Ultimately, what do you think?

I mean, ultimately, any effort to force manufacturing back onshore into the United States is going to be inflationary. There's no doubt about it. And what frustrates me on this is that one of the reasons that Trump won the election was the American people had had enough inflation. They wanted a break from seeing their standard of living deteriorated by the ever-increasing price of goods and services. And so I really do think that the president needs to think long and hard about the necessity of helping to protect the standard of living of the American people by keeping the inflation—it's not a genie, it's like the inflation devil—in the bottle.

So what does this mean for Fed Chair Powell? How difficult does this dynamic make his job, and do you think his job is secure through May of 2026?

I got to tell you, I'm really happy not to have his job. He has the biggest no-win job in the country because through the lens of hindsight, we will always be able to second-guess every single decision he makes. Right here, right now, he's grappling with: do you cut rates as the labor market shows ever-so-slight signs of softening, or do you hold the course because of the risk of an inflationary spike coming from tariff increases? He's going to have to make that decision based upon evolving policies over the weeks ahead. It's a really tough predicament he's in right here, right now.

Ken, it sounds like you have doubts that the American economy can be easily transitioned into a manufacturing one. What are the chances of making that work? And do you think that it's a realistic goal?

I mean, look, there's a great video clip from Dave Chappelle, and it goes something like, "Americans want to wear Nikes, not make Nikes." And I think he's spot on. I don't understand why we think it's a virtue to bring back to America low-skilled jobs in manufacturing. I completely agree with the president. We need the ability to ramp up our manufacturing base to strengthen our national defense, spot on, right? But I don't think the American people are looking for a return to low-skill, low-paying manufacturing jobs in our country. I don't think they want those jobs. I think they want jobs where we are building high-value-added products, successful businesses building high-value-added products, where you can create jobs on that factory floor that are well-paying jobs.

Those are the jobs we should aspire to create in our country, not jobs that right now China's actually trying to move to other, even lower-cost labor countries. Why do we want those jobs here in America?

I'd love to see this from your position leading Citadel and also your message to Citadel Securities employees. What do you tell them to navigate all of this volatility?

I will tell you that for my portfolio managers, it has been several really challenging weeks because every couple of days there's another big headline on Bloomberg that we need to react to and we need to reshape our portfolios with respect to. It's been a really difficult time for fundamental investors because so much of the value of the companies that we invest in is being dictated by very quickly changing policies from Washington.

So, your best way to navigate that?

I think in retrospect, perhaps holding cash would have been the best way to navigate this, but that's so contrary to our culture of always trying to be on the offense, always trying to find ways to create value in the markets.

Is there something fundamental that's changing about the way you approach markets?

Look, I fundamentally believe that this period of instability that we're going through will come and go. Like, fundamentally, I believe that as the Trump administration moves through time, as policies become solidified, the economic backdrop against which one invests capital will become easier once again.

Now, from a talent perspective, it's been interesting. In the hedge fund industry in particular, it seems like there has just been a war for talent that has been expanding despite what the market has been doing. The non-competes seem to be getting longer. The pay packages seem to be getting bigger amongst all of your rivals as well. What's the end game?

I don't know. We talked about that back in 1997. We talked about that in 2004. We talked about that in 2012 and 2015 and 2024 and here in 2025. One of the only constants I've known in my entire career is that there's tremendous demand for talented individuals who are able to create value. That's the only constant I've known in my entire career.

Is it also a reflection of fewer places to go?

No, I think it's just the reality that the war for talent is ongoing, has been forever. And Bloomberg Television's covered that war for 30 years now. My entire career has been about people changing jobs from firm to firm, given there's a constant bid for great people on Wall Street.

Treasury Secretary Scott Bessent has been talking about deregulation being that third leg of the stool. He said it's coming in the third or fourth quarter of this year. What would be the biggest change for Citadel in that environment?

17. So, first of all, I applaud Secretary Bessent for putting out a clear economic plan for our country. It gives us a set of ideas and principles that we can debate, and in that debate we'll end up with the best possible policy. So, kudos to the Secretary for putting forth his three-point plan. The deregulation 17, 18, 19, 20 point of his plan is one that I think is going to be a big question mark. It's going to take time to roll back a fair amount of the regulation that's been passed. But let me tell you what's been really helpful for American businesses. The end of the onslaught of regulation that we faced during The end of that onslaught means that we can once again focus our time in the boardroom, in leadership meetings, on how to build and grow our businesses again.

Now, you are one of the very few people who own an original copy of the Constitution. What does it mean to you these days?

I would say that the Constitution represents the pinnacle, the pinnacle of the foresight, idealism, and intellect of our Founding Fathers. I mean, they created a structure of government that has not only survived, but has prospered for 250 years. I mean, it is really remarkable how the United States of America and the history of our country is not perfect, but how this country has led the world for the last 250 years under the principles enshrined in that document.

Is there anything about that document that's at risk today?

You know, I think that people like to talk about how the current administration has put some of the principles in the Constitution at risk. I think that's largely overblown. I will tell you a story that's on point. We made an offer to a woman who was at the University of Texas at Austin. She was here on a visa. She lost her visa due to the actions of the administration. And one of my colleagues, who was from the same country she was, called me somewhat distraught over how this had happened to this young woman. And I said, you need to take a step back. We will find her the best lawyer. We will represent her in the American court system. And in our country, the courts are the final arbiter of decisions such as this.

Before you, in a sense, lose your mind, have faith in how our government works. That young woman today has her visa again. She'll be working for us this summer. And I hope when she graduates, I hope she too stays in America. But that balance of power between the legislative branch, the judicial branch, and the executive branch, that's enshrined in our Constitution, held firm in this moment in time.

How hard will you fight to protect that document?

How hard? Look, I think that I live in a state where I am very grateful, whether it's the Speaker of our House, the Leader of the Senate, or our Governor, are all committed to the civil liberties of the people of the state of Florida. I think Florida is an exceptional state in that it is so focused on the personal rights that are enshrined in the Constitution. And I'm particularly active in Florida politics because I so cherish the fact that we have the rights that we have as Americans. And here in Miami, I think we have a huge blessing that Cuban immigrants who came here, who gave up everything to come to this country, share that same sense of respect for the Constitution and the importance of the civil liberties enshrined in this document.

I do still want to know more about what makes you tick as a leader here. What makes you someone who built this massive investing empire? What drives you? What motivates you to come in and do this every day?

So why do I get out of bed every day and come here?

Yes. And what time do you wake up for that matter?

That's like a random number, unfortunately. But look, it is such a luxury in life to work with people every day who you respect and admire. That's just a luxury in life. So I get to come to an office and work with some of the best and brightest people from whom I learn something new each and every day. And I think that's a job that's just really hard to replace, like a job in which every day you learn something new.

What does Ken Griffin look like under pressure? On your toughest day, how do you let off steam and how do you navigate a tough time?

A scoop of vanilla chip ice cream from Häagen-Dazs with hot fudge.

Seriously?

Oh, yes, yes. No, there's a bit of a joke that you can tell how stressful it's been by how much my waistline's grown over the last few months. And one of my colleagues, his waistline goes in exactly the opposite direction. So there you go. Love the Häagen-Dazs vanilla chip with hot fudge on that stressful day.

You're human. So, I mean, it's interesting because you've talked about navigating stress in stressful times before. You've kind of talked about how important it was to be able to build a business like this. You talked about it through times like 2008, for example.

Well, you know, there's an old line when you're marching through hell, one foot in front of the other until you get to the other side. And going through the fall of '08 was like going through hell. But any business that's going to be in existence for decades is going to have those moments. You just need to rise to the occasion. You've got to march through hell.

Another maybe personal question for you. I've got to know, why did you buy a stegosaurus?

No, I didn't buy a stegosaurus. I bought Apex, which is the greatest, one of the greatest dinosaur fossils ever found. And number one is I've always loved dinosaurs. This is ridiculous. I had a stuffed dinosaur when I was a child. The Field Museum in Chicago, the Halls of the Evolving Planet I underwrote in support. I've always been fascinated by this moment in the history of our planet. And to make sure that Apex, which was one of the greatest fossils ever found, stayed here in America to inspire generations of children about science was just an opportunity I could not pass up.