Interview with Founder and CEO of Point72 Steve Cohen

I'm here with Steve Cohen, one of the greatest investors of all time and founder and CEO of Point72. Point72 is a hedge fund which currently employs over 1,600 individuals and manages upwards of $19 billion in assets with 11 different offices around the globe. Throughout his career, Steve has donated hundreds of millions of dollars to a variety of charitable causes and has personally founded three philanthropic organizations, the Steve and Alexandra Cohen Foundation, the Cohen Veterans Network, and Cohen Veterans Bioscience. In November of 2020, Steve purchased the New York Mets and has since devoted countless hours to improving the team, as well as exploring new avenues for COVID relief, such as converting the entirety of Citi Field into a 24-7 COVID testing center and vaccination hub.

No, that sounds pretty good. I mean, you covered it. It was probably all the things, but whatever.

Well, growing up in Long Island, what first drew you to a career in finance?

Wow. Um, you know, it just kind of happened from just, uh, certain people in my life influencing me just little things. Like my grandmother used to talk about stocks. We used to have a lady that actually would take care of us when my parents would go on vacation and she'd talk about her investments. And so I was really intrigued by that. It just kind of, kind of, you know, percolated in my brain and, and, uh, um, and when I was about 12, 13 years old, I started investing with whatever money I had from Bar Mitzvah money and, you know, all that stuff. So, um, and, uh, from there it just became, uh, just something I, I, you know, I used to read the sports page in the New York Post and then the financial pages would be right after it.

And so, like, it was natural just to keep going and letting it, and I like math and I like numbers. And so, you know, it kind of grew from that.

So something you really enjoyed even as a young kid?

Oh, yeah. I mean, you know, I used to sit in brokerage firms when I was 14 years old and watch the tape. You know, I mean, I actually got a job next to a brokerage firm because I wanted to be that close to the brokerage firm. So, you know, I was obsessed with it.

And is that what pushed you to go to Wharton and pursue business there?

Well, I mean, when I got into Wharton, I applied to a bunch of schools. I was going, okay, because it was Wharton. And yeah, I always had a business kind of mind and sort of gravitated to that.

And while you were there, you obviously had a huge interest in that whole sales and trading world. Did you ever consider pursuing anything else within the realm of business?

Now, you know, I mean, I was, I was, I knew I was going to be involved in investing in some way. Um, uh, that's, you know, I used to spend most of my day at Penn If I wasn't going to, you know, I missed a lot of classes because I went down to brokerage firms in Center City in Philadelphia. I used to hang out with brokers. I literally would stand outside these, you know, outside the brokerage firm looking through the glass. And finally, they invited me in and I would go there every day. It was almost my job. I actually worked on the Philadelphia Stock Exchange one summer. So, you know, I was, I was investing my own money with friends at Penn. So we were, you know, I literally read everything I could on investing and business.

I used to go to the library and just get every magazine, every paper. And so I was, you know, clearly very interested, you know. So it paid out well.

Do you think that that kind of undergraduate business program is the best or one of the best preparations for people who want to pursue that kind of a career?

Well, you know, you can do that in grad school, too. All right. Like the way I describe it to people, anybody born today is probably going to live to 100, given all the medical advances. So whether you do it when you're 19 or when you're 22, 23 is probably, you know, whenever you're ready.

And does Point72 care whether somebody has an undergraduate or has attended an undergraduate program or that sort of a thing?

Well, actually, we have an academy that actually takes undergraduate kids and trains them to be analysts. We have 14,000 applicants for 40 spots, highly, highly competitive. And so we're hiring the best and brightest. That's fantastic.

Uh, later in life, you know, you've developed one of the most impressive modern art collections in the world. Um, was that like—well, nothing's as good as that piece of art behind you. Thank you. Thank you. Was that something, uh, you were always interested in, or did that, that appreciation come later? Yeah, that came later. Um, you know, I didn't have that sort of—I wasn't brought up that way, going to museums, um, but

I had people working for me, and they were collecting, and I just sort of enjoyed it. And so I went down with them, and I would look at art with them, and then I got hooked. And then once I get into something, I just go full throttle.

What has your experience picking stocks, you know, changed the way or influenced the way that you value art, the way you look at art in terms of appreciation about it?

You know, I don't try to value art like investments. And I think investment's more of a science. Art is more of a, what I would call, knowledge and understanding what other things within that particular artist, what period in his career, what other things have gone for. And then on top of it, it's really more about, do you love the piece? And if I love a piece, I will pay probably more than most because I'm not—I treat my art collection differently than my investments. I do it out of love. I do it because I want to, I just want, you know, there's something about the piece that, you know, just gets me going. If I look at a piece and it's on my mind two or three days later, I know I want it. I literally, like, keep thinking about it.

If I don't think about it, I know that's my system. If I don't think about it two days later, I know it means nothing to me.

Well, that's really lovely. From running Point72 and collecting art to running the Mets, you're obviously a guy with a lot on his plate. Most kids my age, going through the college process, when we're trying to get through high school in general, really struggle with time management. So what's the secret to being able to do it all so well?

Well, first you're assuming I do it well. Okay. So, uh, you know, I'm still trying to deal with the Mets. Obviously that's additional thing on my plate and we're in a COVID world, right? So I'm home a lot and I'm not out as much. So I have the time to do run the Mets, run 0.72 and I still run a portfolio. Now, once I'm out, you know, COVID's over and I'm out in the world again and dealing with all sorts of distractions that are you know, less prevalent today, then I may have to give up trade, you know, and just run 0.72 and run the Mets, which is, you know, cause what you don't want to do is do three things poorly.

You know, I'd rather do two things well and, and give up one thing. And my firm is so big today. My, my portfolio management is a small piece of the profitability. So I have a real business and, and that's the thing that drives me. And I care about the business more than my own trading. And so, uh, you know, we'll figure it out. You know, you gotta be adaptable. You gotta be flexible. You know, one door closes, another one opens and, uh, you know, it doesn't, trading doesn't define me as a person.

That's good. So switching gears for a little bit, you know, as I mentioned before, of your three main charitable foundations, two of them are centered around veterans. It's a really lovely thing that you've chosen to focus on that community. So given all the work you've done for veterans, whether it be through helping them find employment, whether it be through housing, whether it be Cohen Veterans Bioscience, which is obviously much more focused on the science and mental aspect of serving in the military, do you believe military service should be compulsory for Americans, or did you ever consider joining the military?

Well, my son did, and that's how, you know, he became a Marine, went to Afghanistan, served four years and, um, and came back and, you know, he was fine. And, but as we know, lots of veterans come back and they're, they're not able to function in society as well as they'd like to. And so, uh, that was sort of the motivation. And, uh, at the same time, I was involved with Robin Hood, which is a New York foundation and pretty involved with poverty in New York. And we had set up to help veterans from a housing perspective in New York City. And so I ran that committee. And so, both my son was in the Marines at the same time I was running that committee. And we set up this mental health clinic at NYU. Robin Hood's sort of mandate is New York City.

Once I had set up this clinic at NYU, I realized I could take this national. And that's what we've done. So we've opened about 24, 25 clinics servicing probably 20,000 vets and their families every year for free. And so that became like I was looking for something that was uniquely mine that I could run with. And the CVB, the Cohen Veterans Bioscience, is an offshoot of, of the clinics where we're treating PTSD in veterans and traumatic brain injury in the mental health clinics. And, but we're also, through CVB, Cohen Veterans Bioscience, looking for cures, looking for treatments on the medical side, developing drugs, developing diagnostics to treat veterans. So they're really sort of, you know, same part of the—they're two different efforts, but part of the same mission. Well, that's a tremendous story, and I think, you know, thank you for your service.

What do your veteran networks do that the government falls short of?

Well, the problem is, you know, the Veterans Health Administration is, you know, sort of a, you know, it's bureaucratic. And if you ask veterans, they don't get treated as well as—that the Veterans Health is just not set up to treat veterans in the way that gives the best results. So what we try to do is set up a gold standard of treatment for veterans so that we can demonstrate success, which then forces the VA, you know, the Veterans Health Administration, to, you know, maybe improve their results. And, you know, they treat veterans a little bit differently. We wanted to show a different approach.

Right. So you guys get to be a gold standard for all.

Exactly. Exactly. And, and frankly, you know, I mean, government isn't always great at delivering certain types of services that might be better off either in the charitable world or, you know, business. And so, you know, it's just the nature of the way it is. And, but, you know, it's important. I always thought it was just important that they've committed, you know, they served our nation and then they get back home and maybe we don't treat them as well as we should as they try to come back into society. And I thought I'd set an example for that.

Have you guys or have you personally evolved those networks to deal with COVID-19?

Well, COVID-19, no, this is purely for mental health. I mean, you've got to stay focused on the mission. You know, I would call that mission creep. And I can't, I can't solve every problem. So, of course. Okay. So we try to stay focused.

Good. Good. Well, clearly, look, it's had great results. You guys are doing amazing work. See, that's wonderful. Now, the Steven & Alexandra Cohen Foundation, your other main organization, has given away hundreds of millions of dollars to a wide range of causes. And when I was looking at kind of pie charts you guys put out, the two main things are Lyme disease research and children's health research. And so, I was wondering, with Lyme disease specifically, what was the gestation of that focus? Pretty simple. My wife developed Lyme disease, and she ended up—and it really was a bad case and took her a long time to get it under control. And what she found was, um,

navigating the health system, trying to find people who could really treat this, was really difficult, and that just motivated her to—and actually, I developed Lyme about two years ago, and, and, uh, so, um, you know, it's affected both of us. And that's—listen, it's really around the New York area, especially in the Hamptons and Westchester, Connecticut. It's, it's pretty bad, and, and, and government doesn't really recognize it as a real disease. And the reality is people are suffering from it. And so she decided to set up a, a mission to, you know, find new ways to treat Lyme disease and bring together the best thought leaders to standardize the care. And, you know, because most people have Lyme, they're literally going from doctor to doctor, trying to figure out how to treat this.

And typically, it's treated with antibiotics, but if you don't catch it early enough, then it invades the nervous system and creates all sorts of other problems. And a lot of times, it gets misdiagnosed as MS or other things. And so there's a whole problem in diagnosis in addition to treating people who—and it's very insidious. You don't know you have it. And then all of a sudden, you're getting weird symptoms. And the symptoms in each person can be different. And so it's really tough to diagnose. And so, uh, she wanted to bring awareness to this problem, and she's done a great job doing it.

Yeah, no, look, I think in general, I think it's really admirable that you, you and your wife have taken personal experiences and done, you know, real work for the broader community that shares those experiences. It's really great. All right. Yeah. We've seen this new trend recently, especially within the last decade, of corporations, really large institutions, increasingly involving themselves in a myriad of cultural and political issues. And we hadn't seen this before. This isn't what happened in the '90s. This is a very new thing. To what extent do you think this is a healthy or unhealthy course of action for businesses?

Well, you know, the way I would describe it is, you know, businesses have changed their sort of philosophy of what's important, instead of it just—their philosophy being driving shareholder returns.

Right. They've realized that they're part of the world and they have to contribute on a social basis. They, you know, they have to, they have to exist in a world where they just can't be focused on profitability, and that they have a responsibility to be forward-thinking when it comes to what's going on in the world. And so it's sort of a change in tack. I would call it more of a social conscience. But I think it's the right approach. You can't be in the world and decide you're going to be independent of the issues that are affecting the world. And employees are demanding it, shareholders are demanding it, all stakeholders are demanding it. And so they're being more, what I would call, conscious of various aspects of things that they're involved with, right?

Employees care about the world, right? And if your employees feel like management is not thinking about the things that matter to them, Well, that's going to cause a little bit of a rift. And so it's in the corporation's interest to address some of these issues. And I, frankly, I think it's, you know, over the longterm, a good thing.

Yeah. Well, I know 0.72 obviously takes that stuff very seriously. ESG is a huge part of your guidance.

I mean, listen, whether it's diversity, you know, and whether it's, um, you know, the environment, I mean, these are, these are, you know, big, big, big issues that, that affect everybody. And to ignore them in a world where everyone is thinking about that just seems kind of narrowly focused.

I wish everyone had that ideology.

We wouldn't be in the situation that we are in now, but that is really, really- I think corporations are changing and will continue to change. You know, listen, that's what any, um, system without corporations really a system has to be adaptable. It has to be flexible, right? Cause the world changes and it can't be so, uh, inflexible that it can adapt to what's going on in the world.

Right. So you've obviously, you know, in the past few months taken on a big responsibility with the Mets. So it's a huge—everyone who's a Mets fan is really excited about it. It's a huge deal whenever we switch owners. Have you always been— How are we doing so far? So far, it's looking great. You know, I mean, my dad and I are huge Mets fans. Every big, every big trade, big purchase, we get excited about. So far, we're looking great. Tell your dad to buy a season ticket. Will do. Have you always been a lifelong Mets fan? And have you always loved baseball and sports?

The way I would describe it, I was a big Mets fan and Yankees fan. I was a New York City fan growing up. Now, it was easy for me to get to Shea Stadium, which was, you know, the stadium before Citi Field. And because I lived on Long Island, I would take the train right to Shea Stadium. So I used to go with my buddies and we used to start in the top deck and buy cheap tickets and then try to move our way down over time, you know, maybe later in the game when the fans were leaving. And so, you know, that was—we went to lots of games. And we had a fantastic time. And that's when the Mets, you know, started in 1962. And they were kind of laughable. They, you know, they were the Amazin' Mets, right?

They just, they were terrible. And then 1969, they won the World Series in a dramatic fashion. And then in '73. And so that was when I was growing up as a kid. And so that was fun. Tom Seaver and Ron Swoboda and Tommy Agee and, you know, and it was great. And but then the Mets kind of, outside of 1986, you know, maybe year 2000 when the series—you know, every once in a while they'd show up, but most of the time they were, you know, not great. And so it's hard to follow a team that's not playing well. And so, you know, it was more fun to follow the Yankees. But, I mean, I've always been a Mets fan at heart. And, you know, which, you know, now that I own the team, I'm all in. And, you know, I view this as something, a civic responsibility where I can make millions of people happy.

And my wife's family is diehard Mets. I mean, they're just diehard Mets fans. I mean, forever. And my father-in-law goes to 81 games a year, does not miss a game. Sits front row, does not miss a game. That's amazing. Okay. And everybody knows who he is. Even before I bought the Mets, they know him as Grandpa. And, and, uh, so, um, so it's, it's exciting. It's a challenge. Um, there's a lot to do. I've got to redo the organization. It's going to take time. I mean, so hopefully fans are patient, and it's clear they're not, and you know, they want everything yesterday, and it's going to, it's going to take years to fix this. 'Cause this, this is a turnaround, but I'm up to the challenge. I'm looking forward to it.

Yeah, I'm really excited. Did you ever think that—you don't imagine that ever like an aspiration of yours as a kid?

You know, I mean, that's—I never thought about it from that. I mean, since I tried to buy the Dodgers about 10 years ago and came in second. And so that's when I started thinking that might be fun to do. And so, and then, you know, obviously you've got to have the right time and right opportunity. I bought a small piece of the Mets after the failed bid for the Dodgers and, and assumed that it would never come my way. And then, you know, came for sale. And, you know, once I decided to do something, you know, I'm going to do my best to win it. And that's what happened here. And so to me, it's like this is a new challenge, new excitement, bringing my skills from operating my business over to the Mets, my enthusiasm.

And so we're having fun with it.

Yeah. You know, it's a really exciting thing. But COVID obviously makes running a sports team really hard. Did the onset of the pandemic give you any pause when evaluating the Mets or considering buying them?

Well, actually it gave me a chance to buy it cheaper. Okay, you know, because, because of coven so I originally my my first bit was higher than I wanted to pay for my second bit, and so I gave me an opportunity to buy well and. And i'm viewing this as a long term investment, you know I do kill coven is something with vaccine, you know vaccines that will come out of very shortly and so i'm looking at this as a 2030 year proposition.

Well, you brought up a lot on this call on the importance of adaptability. And I think that's really pertinent. So like baseball, where we've had a lot of discussions within the baseball world about both its declining popularity, but also how we can bring the sport back and get younger kids into baseball, watching games, playing games, et cetera. Have you been involved in any of those discussions, you know, either on specific things like changing the start time and putting caps on how long the game can go or just more general, you know, ideas, brainstorming how to get the sport back into the minds of young fans?

Well, I mean, it's a good, it's a good question. I mean, you know, baseball is steeped in tradition. You don't want to get rid of that, but you have to, you know, the world is different today and it needs to—the games are too long. They're over three hours and sometimes can be four hours. And the attention span of people, given all the different ways they can spend their time, is just different, right? People are on social media, they're watching short-form clips, film clips. And so we just have to deliver information and, you know, baseball in a way that excites younger—the younger fans are going to be our future, future fans. And so I think there's a good core. I mean, especially in New York for the Mets, there's a rabid fan base. They love the Mets, and what I need to do is create a fan experience that isn't, you know, not just baseball, but an experience when they come to the park.

where, you know, becomes a destination where they can have multiple experiences because people just don't want to sit in their seats for three hours and, you know, that's no fun, right? But yet they want to watch the game, but they want to do other things. They want to make it sort of a—almost like a party. And so, you know, I'm actually actively looking at how to redo the stadium in ways to create more experiences around the park. And so that's a longer-term project. I can't do everything at once. Right. I'm really focused on baseball. The first part is getting, getting a better team on the field. And then on top of that, find ways to connect with younger fans, you know, with different content. We're talking to a major network about doing a documentary on this year on the Mets.

Oh, wow. And, you know, we're trying to tap into younger culture and urban culture in ways that are unique and different. And so, uh, you know, I'll call that TBD, to be determined, but we're working on lots of stuff that, that are hopefully, uh, engage the fans in different ways.

Oh, that's all really exciting. Uh, um, I'm ready to see, see what you have coming. You said it yourself, where the world is very different now than it was even at the beginning of last year. So as we exit this era of hyper-caution and everyone's panicked about public spaces, how anyone really doesn't want to expose themselves to potential contamination, how are you guys prepared to convince people to come back to Citi Field to get people out of that mindset of every public surface can kill me and back into the stadium watching the game surrounded by thousands of other people?

Well, first, there's certain things I can't control. I mean, the state and federal government will determine how many fans we can—the state will determine how many fans we're allowed to have while COVID is still going on. But, for sure, at some point, you know, people will be vaccinated, assuming the virus doesn't mutate into something else, and, you know, and, and, and then people will be protected. And, frankly, I think there's a, for sure, pent-up demand for people to get out of the house and go enjoy themselves at ballparks or, or music venues, or trips, and sort of, you know, fun experiences. And so I think people are going to be raring to go, and I think, you know, people are going to want to come to the stadium once they're vaccinated and feel safe. You know, obviously, we're going to employ procedures to make things more contact-free—mobile ordering, hopefully, for concessions and ticketing that's contact-free, and things like that so that, you know, obviously, a standard of, of

health safety at the stadium so that people can worry about it less. I think ultimately people have to be vaccinated for them really to be comfortable that they can go about their normal lives. So, you know, which will happen. I think people will want to get vaccinated. They'll see their friends. If they're a little worried about getting vaccinated early, I think they'll do it later when they realize it's safe. and people are having you know getting back to their normal lives and they'll want to do the same thing well i mean the president's saying we can get a hundred million doses in a hundred days uh so which actually i think is not a high enough goal uh yeah i think that's a pretty you know like we we just allowed new york city to uh vaccinate it at city field we're going to be able to do 7 000 people a day that's amazing yeah oh my god wow 24 hours

seven days. Yeah, that's really great. Um, so you actually—there's going to be a spike then, you know, in interest of when people wanting to engage with the stadium rather than— I think people are raring to go, right? You know, you know, they've been indoors, they've been held back, and I think, you know, that's just going to—they're going to, they're going to be much more appreciative of these experiences, you know, being with, around people again. And I think, uh, the Mets are going to benefit from that.

Oh, that's great, and kudos to you on the Citi Field vaccination stuff. Those stats are really incredible. We've seen, especially with the pandemic, and, you know, these new high rates of crime, you know, insanely high taxes, homelessness is spiking, there's been a mass exodus of New Yorkers leaving the city. People want out of these major metropolitan areas that are really suffering from societal problems, especially compounded by COVID-19. Are you worried about the future of that, of the active Mets fan base? Because you say yourself, New York, the city has at its core a lot of really passionate fans. But if they leave the city, if they go off to Connecticut, Long Island, wherever, what does that then make the future look like to you?

Well, actually, I think our biggest fan base is Long Island. So... Okay, so I'm less worried about that. You know, I think, you know, these are statewide issues that if they're going to lose population because of people's view that they're not safe or they're overtaxed or the quality of service is not what it used to be, that, you know, ultimately, people are much more mobile than they, you know, we've learned from work from home that I can operate my entire firm from home. Outside of a small technology staff, we're not back in the office, which means there's a level of freedom that didn't exist before, which means that you can live anywhere and do your work. That's a new thing.

It'll take a while for states to realize they have to compete on a different level. If people feel like they can work in a different place and maybe get taxed less and have a better quality of life, well, at some point, states are going to realize they're losing revenues. People are moving out, potentially, and have to deal with that. And so that's the nature of competition and people feeling free to live where they want and work where they want. And so, like anything else, these are adaptive organisms, and they'll adapt. And if they don't adapt, then they'll run into problems and eventually have to adapt. And so, you know, these things solve themselves over time. I mean, I'm not shorting New York City.

New York City is a vibrant place with lots of reasons why someone would want to live there. And so, but they'll have to adapt, like any, you know, city, country that has to deal with new problems and new issues. And so, and it will, because it'll have to.

Well, you mentioned the newfound ability to work online and that you guys looked at that option. You've obviously had to live through this period of stay at home work and you found that it has gone rather well. or do you expect that even once we're out of a pandemic even once you know the vast majority of people are vaccinated the point 72 dollars a hybrid some people in the office, some people at home model for or you know.

Do you know I don't see why not, as long as people are doing the work and. You know, want to be competitive and want to. People may need flexibility and they may be more productive because they're now not commuting long commutes and. And so i'm open to that you know, maybe some hybrid model two days off three days on at work in. offices or one week on one week off, you know we're open, these are all sort of off the play with that a little bit and figure out what works, but I think you know the higher the best and brightest. we're going to have to be flexible in how we work. And I'm open to that because I've seen it work. I mean, we're living proof that we can operate this business.

In fact, I don't think I'll be in the offices five days a week anymore. I mean, I can operate from home. So maybe I'll stay home Fridays. Or maybe I'll go to the Mets offices instead of 0.72. And so I want the same flexibility. That's really nice.

Do you think that other firms are thinking about it the same way you are? And if so, if we see expectations shift in such a major way in terms of when people are supposed to be in the office, when people should be in the office, could we see this exodus continue? Could more people leave, unburdened by having to live where they work?

Well, it's certainly something that has to be monitored, right? I mean, if you can work, the real question is where do they want to work and where do they want to live, right? And now one isn't exclusive of the other, right? You can work and live in the same respect. You know, people do want interaction with their colleagues at work. So, you know, there's going to be this happy blend. And however that plays out, it'll play out. You know, it's my job as a, as a company to provide as much flexibility as possible and still operate at a high standard. How that affects New York, hard to know. I mean, it can't be a positive. It can only potentially be a negative. But then the other side, because of that, the city will have to adapt and find ways to attract workers.

And so nothing's static, right? I mean, one reaction causes another reaction. So that's why I'm not as negative on New York City.

Well, not being negative is always good. In part due to people like you, I think we've seen a steady increase in the interest that people have in the finance world. I know from my point of view, a lot of my friends regularly trade stocks, even as, like, sophomores and juniors. People are really excited in everything that has to do with business because they can pursue their interests in a way that actually makes them money. Is there any advice you have for kids my age, kids a little bit older who want to pursue the field that you essentially pioneered?

Well, I mean, obviously, if they're really interested in it, they ought to get a, get a great education and then go from there and, and learn the basics of the particular business, part of the business in the finance industry they want to be. You mentioned they're making money. Well, they're not always going to make money trading stocks, and, you know, stocks just don't go up. And so, uh, you know, we've seen an ease of access in trading with Robinhood and other companies like that, that's made it almost like a, uh, ease through an app of, you know, getting involved in the markets, um, and, um, but, you know, you're, you're, you're generally, you're trading against professionals, too, and who probably have better experience and better access to information than you will.

Generally. And so, so you know, but it's, listen, I wish I had that as a kid. It would have made, you know, I would have been—I don't think I ever left my room. I would have traded, like, all day, all night, you know, so. So I can only imagine what's going on with your friends and buddies. And so, so any, listen, any, anything that gets people interested in the economy and capitalism, I think is a good thing. And, and you know, because ultimately I think that's what has driven the American economy for the last couple of hundred years. And, you know, so, sustain that, you know, given all the stuff we hear about as far as other alternative ways of, of running an economic system, you know, so I'm encouraged by that.

No, listen, I mean, the only thing I would say is, you know, follow your passion. It's not all about money, right? The money comes from, success comes from being passionate about something and then doing it to the best of your ability, whatever it is. And that's what I tell my kids, you know, as long as they're happy and following the things that make them happy and the passions, then go for it. And then go after it to 100% of your energy and your ability.

That's really great. That's a really lovely way to close this out. Thank you so much for being here. All right, Jordan.

Enjoyed talking. All right.

Take care now.